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standard vs. magnum caps (Read 1106 times)
paulbehe
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standard vs. magnum caps
Apr 1st, 2009 at 6:20pm
 
greetings... before I get to the real subject of this post, I will preface with how I develope a load in my l.r. m/l.  I take a new bullet style and shoot 10 shot groups using 70-75-80-85-90 grains of the powder of choice. nothing changes but the weight of the powder charge. see which load shoots the smallest group, then try a different powder brand, bullet style or cap etc. to see if I can shrink the group even more. Most of you probably do something very similar to work up the best load.  here is what happened to me when I tried CCI #11 magnum caps. The series of loads I shot with CCI #11 STANDARD caps gave me ROUND groups of varying size. When I switched to CCI #11 MAG. caps and ran through the EXACT same series of loads, all of the groups were at least twice as ltall as wide. [vertical stringing]. This indicates to me that the velocities were varying considerably more than with the standard caps. I tried 2 different bullet styles [one paper patched and one grease grooved]  and used the mag. caps again and encountered the same thing with both bullets. by the way, all testing is done at 200 yds. There is some talk that the mag. caps "boost" the charge foreward a little before complete ignition takes place. If this is what is happening I could easily see how varying ignition/velocities would occur, hence, vertical stringing. I might add that ignition seems instantaneous with no delay between the cap going off and total ignition.  Any of you thoughts or experiences on mag. vs. standard caps would be appreciated.  cheers
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zrifleman
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Re: standard vs. magnum caps
Reply #1 - Feb 7th, 2010 at 4:47am
 
Paul---After reading your post about trying standard CCI caps, I gave them a try yesterday. I have been having problems with my new P. Gibbs with vertical stringing at 100 and 200 yds. I bedded the breech, floated the foreend, installed a platinum nipple. I thought I was doing myself a favor with CCI mag caps since so many guys recommend them. I have tried older RWS caps several times with poor results. Using the same load--95 grs Goex Cartridge, same bullets, same felt wad, same loading procedure----only difference was the caps, I got nice round groups.  20 shots at 200 produced 199-10X with one flyer at 6 o'clock in the 9 ring on and SRC target. I attribute that to a partially plugged nipple or hangfire. I changed the wire in my nipple pick to .025 for the.025 flash hole when I got home. Anyway, I think you are on to something about the standard caps. It is the same principle with BPCR---using LP standard primers instead of LR primers or LR Mag primers. It's my opinion that too hot caps or primers "bump" the charge at times creating a variable in the chamber of the rifle as it's being fired.
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Pat in Virginia
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Re: standard vs. magnum caps
Reply #2 - Feb 7th, 2010 at 4:40pm
 
I'll just pass on something I've been told and not experimented with.   The source is someone who has shot a lot during his lifetime and I've found his advice to be usually very reliable.

I asked my friend if he would advise that I switch out a rifle nipple for a musket nipple.   My thinking was "bigger boom, better ignition."  His advice to me was to stay with the rifle nipple as that would give more consistent ignition.

Now I realize, if you are using platinum lined nipples, as I do, your nipple aperture is probably the same no matter whether the nipple is designed for a musket or a rifle.   However the cap would still be different.

It seems to me the same principle may be at work, i.e., as a general rule ot thumb, use the least primer that gets the job done.  I believe that holds (in general) in the smokeless world as well.   For my 6PPC and .222 benchrest rifles I use Federal Match Primers which are not loaded as hot as magnum primers and from some pictures I've seen, years back, in Precision Shooting magazine they appear to have a more consistent and well formed flame than do hotter primers.

I wonder if anyone has made a comparison of the performance of a PH Whitworth and/or Volunteer rifle using both platinum lined rifle and musket nipples.   My guess is that the platinum lined rifle nipple would give better accuracy than the platinum lined musket nipple when using caps from the same manufacturer.

Anybody tried it?


Pat
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Pat in Virginia
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Re: standard vs. magnum caps
Reply #3 - Feb 9th, 2010 at 9:52pm
 
Well, I just ordered a #11 platinum lined nipple with 5/16-18 thread for my PH Volunteer from Rick Weber.   I already have his platinum lined musket nipple sitting in the riflle.  Come better weather it will be fun to see what if any difference it makes in group size.   

Of course, it won't be as straight forward as it first sounds.  I'll probably have to try a range of different powder charges to see what charge works best for each rifle/nipple-cap combination and then compare the best for each.  I'll be using RWS caps as that is my standard choice.

Hey!  Who can I blame for all of this?  Who started this thread anyway? Wink

Oh, good!   I can blame it all on Paul.  Grin
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457121
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Re: standard vs. magnum caps
Reply #4 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 11:37pm
 
who is Rick Weber and how do you contact him?
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gcrank1
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Re: standard vs. magnum caps
Reply #5 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 2:54pm
 
The controversy regarding caps continues! In the well known tome 'The Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle' by N.H. Roberts the discussion was the various percussion caps also, some reknowned shooters preferring the mild and some the hotter. In fact, if I recall correctly, the statement was made that when the percussion cone and caps were dispensed with and an adapter (which he shows how to make) installed for use of cartridge primers that the 'group size improved'. This for conical bullet, longer range guns in particular, I believe.
I know there have been changes in the 'strength' of primers since then, but regardless, they, then, had to be of more intensity than percussion caps, dont you think?

I do look forward to your experiments with #11 vs musket caps as I have wondered about this also. As I want to go to Lodgewood here in Wisconsin (USA) to get a replacement berilyium(?), or at least an AMPCO (ss?) musket cone perhaps I will also pick up a comparable #11 type just in case your reports are favorable.
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zrifleman
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Re: standard vs. magnum caps
Reply #6 - Feb 12th, 2010 at 7:19am
 
Rick Weber was recommended to me from a muzzleloading forum to make a platinum lined nipple for my P. Gibbs. I had him make 2 and they exceeded my expectations. He is a long range muzzleloader competitor and a member of the US team. His email address is rweber@cvs.com. He is a great guy to deal with.
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zrifleman
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Re: standard vs. magnum caps
Reply #7 - Feb 12th, 2010 at 7:29am
 
I revisited to standard CCI caps yesterday. This time I used 100 grs of Goex 1 FG under a 540 gr RCE swaged PP bullet. 7 shots in the 10 ring at 100 yds about 1 3/4" wide due to a strong crosswind---not a hint of vertical stringing. In fact you could lay a ruler across the group and pretty much hit center on each bullet hole. By the way I chronographed the load while I was at it-----1249 fps.
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zrifleman
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Re: standard vs. magnum caps
Reply #8 - Feb 20th, 2010 at 5:33am
 
I gave the CCI standard caps a try in my .54 custom built Hawken that has a 1-34 twist for conicals. Same great results as with my Gibbs---no vertical stringing---very accurate. I'm starting to think the CCI standard cap is the best one available rght now.
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gcrank1
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Re: standard vs. magnum caps
Reply #9 - Feb 20th, 2010 at 8:47pm
 
FWIW, When trying to determine which of two variables is the trend I should follow I have found that I need a practice target and two test targets. I fire my fouling and practice shots to warm up me and the gun.
Once ready, I load and fire alternatly at the two and make however many shot groups I want. This keeps me in the same conditions and freshness or fatigue for the test and has proven to be, if not perfect, very useful to avoid those variables day to day which can lead me down a rabbit trail.
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zrifleman
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Re: standard vs. magnum caps
Reply #10 - Feb 21st, 2010 at 4:53am
 
Sounds a little too complicated to me. I shoot 1-2 days a week at a local club. I try to keep careful notes in a log book so that I don't lose my place. Save the better targets with load info written on them for reference. Warmups and fouling shots are essential. I only give credit for consistency not anomallies.
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