Long Range Muzzle Loader

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LRML >> General Discussion >> long range details
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Message started by hashett_jack on Nov 4^th, 2007, 8:46pm

Title: long range details
Post by hashett_jack on Nov 4^th, 2007, 8:46pm

Dear friends , a couple of questions from a terrific long range beginner :
- When I take a look to the Match Results , I see scores as follows : " 60.02 , 56.01... " what do that means , the latests two numbers ?? I suppose that 60 must be six ten ring shots ( for example) but " .02 ..."
- When you say a Match consists in 15 shots... are the better 10 , or you do the total addition of the 15 shots ??
- I�ve never shot at this range , and I wonder how see every one of your shots ?? Do you use a telescope ? cameras ?

Title: Re: long range details
Post by belgmart on Nov 4^th, 2007, 9:38pm

This will take quite a bit of time, so bear with me...
1st of all, the targets used in the anglosaxon world (more or less standard for LR work) have a 5-ring as max score, with an x-ring inside that, which is called V-bull.
When you shoot and are scored, the number of V-bull is noted, so a 60.03 would be a score of 60 (out of a possible max. of 75), with 3 V-bulls. In LR shooting, MLAIC rules are not used, so it is not the best 10 out of 13, or whatever.
For LR work, you shoot 15 shots for score, each shot having a potential max. score of 5 ( so the max. score is 75).
BUT you also have - as a rule - 5 ranging shots, to get on target and 5 sighters to get good sight settings for the range and conditions. The 1st shot hitting the target will be your 1st sighter.
You can usually convert your sighters to scoring shots in the reverse firing order, i.e. you can convert the last shot, or the last 2, 3,... - or all 5. However, you won't be allowed to convert the 1st 3, and not the last 2 (reverse firing order, remember?)
And as to spotting your shots, actually nobody is able to see them with their spotting scopes - but there's markers in the butts which will both indicate score and fall of shot on the target. Sometimes these are 'dedicated' markers, sometimes it is just other shooters that aren't shooting in the current detail, so your turn will be next...

Title: Re: long range details
Post by hashett_jack on Nov 4^th, 2007, 9:48pm

Gulp !

Title: Re: long range details
Post by hashett_jack on Nov 4^th, 2007, 9:53pm

Belgmart can you take a look at this link and tell me if it�s anyone the target used long range you mean ( five rings , v-bull , etc ) ??

http://images.google.es/imgres?imgurl=http://www.pistoleer.com/targets/pics/MR.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.pistoleer.com/targets/highpower/&h=250&w=248&sz=16&hl=es&start=18&tbnid=dgGHnsGIyi35OM:&tbnh=111&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3DNRA%2BRifle%2BTargets%2B%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Des%26rls%3DGFRC,GFRC:2007-08,GFRC:es

Title: Re: long range details
Post by David on Nov 4^th, 2007, 11:05pm

For details of the targets used in Great Britain and in international MLAIC Long Range Matches see: www.mlagb.com/rifle/nratargets.htm (http://www.mlagb.com/rifle/nratargets.htm). Targets used for 'domestic' US matches differ.

The MLAIC have rules for long range shooting and these are published in Appendix 4 (http://www.mlaic.org/constitution%20and%20rules.htm#lrr) of the Constitution Rules and Regulations.

International course of fire is:
300, 500, 600 yards - 3 sighters and 10 match shots in 60 minutes
900, 1000 yards - 5 sighters and 15 match shots in 90 minutes

You have unlimited ranging shots, the first shot to strike the target being counted as the first sighter. All shooting has to be completed in the alloted time.

David

Title: Re: long range details
Post by DoubleD on Nov 5^th, 2007, 6:55am

Okay Gents is it 5 ranging shots �and 5 sighter or unlimited ranging and 5 sighters?

Title: Re: long range details
Post by David on Nov 5^th, 2007, 7:09am

For muzzle loading and both MLAIC (http://www.mlaic.org) International rules and MLAGB (http://www.mlagb.com) rules there are unlimited ranging shots. The first shot to strike the scoring area of the target is the first sighter. There are either 3 or 5 sighters depending on the distance fired as above.

Some domestic competitions run by the NRA in the UK have 5 ranging shots and 5 sighting shots. There is also a series of World Historical Long Range matches for black powder rifles, which permits entry for both muzzle and breech loading - I don't know what their rules are.

David

Title: Re: long range details
Post by belgmart on Nov 5^th, 2007, 3:29pm

FWIW, I only have experience with the HBSA and The WLRHSA matches, so those are all the reference points I have... Suffice to say, getting on target at 1,000 isn't as easy as it seems at 1st glance! LR shooting is at the same time a very satisfying but also sometimes an extremely frustrating sport - like getting off the target during your string, and trying to get back on...

Title: Re: long range details
Post by hashett_jack on Nov 5^th, 2007, 6:30pm

Friends , glad to meet you and glad to meet this forum... !!!

Very enlightening . I�ve just talk with the Madrid Shotting Sport Manager in order to organize a 600 Mts Event here in Spain for Breech and muzzleloading and even modern military rifles probably next Jannuary... I menace you all to be a pain asking for information !!!

Thanks one more time

Title: Re: long range details
Post by belgmart on Nov 5^th, 2007, 9:13pm

600? Now, that's midrange! And where in/near Madrid might that be? In Januari, would be rather cold, no?

Title: Re: long range details
Post by hashett_jack on Nov 5^th, 2007, 11:20pm

ooooppss... my mistake, I mean NEXT JUNE !! You�re right about midrange...I should like both 600-1000 mts , but may be too much for only one week end , and the first time that kind of competition over here , no experience . Really I�m thinking about it , and may be... it depends on number of targets , shotting posts I mean . By the way , you have explain to me about " markers " , dedicated or others shoters but.... how are them engaged with the shoter ??

there are a couple of options about military shotting fields near Madrid , I will tell you...

Title: Re: long range details
Post by David on Nov 6^th, 2007, 5:25pm

Unless you have the modern luxury of electronic target scoring you will most likely require a butt marker to pull target frames up and down, mark shot placement and signal score. Shot placement is simple indicated by placing a 'pin' through the shot hole - the pin itself holding a piece of flourescent orange card which the shooter can see with the aid of a spotting telescope. See the MLAIC rules refered to above for signals etc used.

Some competitions shooters share duties with marking while in others paid markers are employed. It really depends on your renage facilities.

David

Title: Re: long range details
Post by hashett_jack on Nov 6^th, 2007, 6:44pm

then , if I have understood , a man ( shooter or employed ) he�s waiting down in the butt for every impact , place down the target and mark the hole with the correct colour etc ?

Title: Re: long range details
Post by David on Nov 6^th, 2007, 7:51pm

Yes, you need a marker for each shot so that the shooter can see the plot fall. It is also usual to have 2 or 3 shooters share one target, so one will fire while the others are loading. After the shot is fired, the next shooter will take his turn. So you could have say 5 targets, but 15 shooters in the same detail. For this reason each shot is scored and recorded.

I realise all this sounds somewhat complicated if you don't have experience of it, but things do (generally) run smoothly!

David

Title: Re: long range details
Post by hashett_jack on Nov 6^th, 2007, 8:29pm

ok , that system would simplify things when you got a small number of shotting posts , but it really seems easy to mistake , several shooters for the same target... how can the marker know who have just shooted.... I imagine they shot always in the same order ??

Title: Re: long range details
Post by hashett_jack on Nov 6^th, 2007, 8:32pm

( I�m thinking that when I will suggest that kind of things over here next June they will shut me in a mental hospital !!! HAHAHA )

Title: Re: long range details
Post by belgmart on Nov 6^th, 2007, 9:09pm

The marker doesn't keep score - he just marks the impact and the score on target for each successive shot, regardless of the shooter. He doesn't know - or care - which shooter has fired the shot. Each shooter scores for the one that shoots after him ( as in filling in his score card),the shooters will know all too well whose turn it is... They just take turns shooting, always in the same order.
Really, sounds way more complicated than it is in reality, things actually move quite quickly: While shooter 1 is loading after firing his shot (and making ready to score shooter 2), 2 is shooting, and 3 is preparing to shoot when the target comes back up with the score of 2. An so on...
The advantage is you have several shooters per target, and you can keep up a steady pace, while only using relatively few markers in the butts.

Title: Re: long range details
Post by David on Nov 7^th, 2007, 6:48am

An alternative that is used in International matches and nowadys also with the MLAGB is to have a score keep allocated to each target. So....

Rifleman 1 fires while rifleman 2 is loading
Butt marker scores target
Score keeper on firing point agrees score with rifleman and records it
Rifleman 2 fires while rifleman 1 is loading
Butt marker scores target
Score keeper on firing point agrees score with rifleman and records it
Rifleman 1 fires while rifleman 2 is loading
Butt marker scores target
Score keeper on firing point agrees score with rifleman and records it
....etc....

The person manning the target never needs know who is shooting.

This also works with 3 people to a firing point. Those at Bisley are wide enough for 3 shooters (and 4 at a squeeze) to leave matts scopes etc. on the firing point. Other ranges may have different constraints.

Come over to Bisley next sping and shoot with the MLAGB as a guest (or join) and see how easy things run. :) We already have shooters from France, Holland and sometimes USA who have joined the MLAGB and shoot with us.

David

Title: Re: long range details
Post by hashett_jack on Nov 7^th, 2007, 10:28pm

I will !!! Thanks by invitation . I think will be the better way to learn in order to apply it after over here . When the date will be closer , I will ask to you for more information about entry fee , maps and hotels etc .
How do the french guests about plane carrying of b. powder and guns ?? I wonder if will be better buy the powder over there...

Title: Re: long range details
Post by David on Nov 8^th, 2007, 6:54am

Overseas shooters have been coming by car ferry. Powder can be obtained here in the UK. The MLAGB can arrange for the necessary paperwork for firearms and a temporary permit.

David

Title: Re: long range details
Post by belgmart on Nov 8^th, 2007, 7:24am

Or you can shoot a breechloader, cartridges can be flown in... ;) Still, a visit to Bisley would be a good idea indeed - probably unique for what it is... You can actually eat, drink and sleep there. And shoot all day long - the perfect world! I usually also take the ferry to go there, and I do presume it would be advisable to purchase powder locally, for which you will need a temporary british firearms permit (which in turn will require the European firearms pass...).

Title: Re: long range details
Post by hashett_jack on Nov 8^th, 2007, 7:34pm

I will be over there for sure.. if my wife doesn�t kill me when I suggest the idea !!!
David , do you know when in spring , more or less ?

Title: Re: long range details
Post by hashett_jack on Nov 8^th, 2007, 7:59pm

Ah , Where is exactly Bisley from London??
THanks

Title: Re: long range details
Post by David on Nov 8^th, 2007, 8:04pm

Provisionally (and still subject to confirmation) we have:
April 6 MLAGB National 300 yard Free & Enfield Rifle Championship, Bisley
May 4 MLAGB National 500 yard Free & Enfield Rifle Championship, Bisley

These are both Sundays and there are more shoots later at 600, 900 and 1000 yards. There will also be some shooting on the Saturday with the Long Range Rifles Branch of the MLAGB. The full calender will be available on the MLAGB (http://www.mlagb.com) around christmas.

Email of PM me via this forum and we can sort details, as much notice as possible to ensure your entry and arrange paperwork. I will be able to arrange for you to shoot as a guest. You will notice above that we also shoot Enfield rifles at long range! :)

Bisley is on the west side of London and Heathrow airport is fairly near. Have at look at the National Shooting Centre (http://www.nsc-bisley.co.uk/) web site.

David

Title: Re: long range details
Post by hashett_jack on Nov 9^th, 2007, 5:11pm

Perfect !! probably will be in the May 500 yards Event... but better wait for December , because we�ll know both schedules , MlGB and the Spanish one .