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British Firearms (Pre. 1914) >> Breech Loading - Military Rifles >> Carter & Edward's Bolt Action
http://www.lrml.org/cgi-bin/researchpress/YaBB.pl?num=1132233898

Message started by Dave on 11/17/05 at 1:24pm

Title: Carter & Edward's Bolt Action
Post by Dave on 11/17/05 at 1:24pm

I was reading in Pollards History of Firearms that in 1867 the Carter & Edwards bolt action was involved in trials for a new military rifle, these trials being won eventually by the Martini of course. The account says that the Carter & Edwards suffered a premature detonation caused by hyper-sensitive ammunition, injuring the hand of Sir Henry Halford who was assisting in the trials. The book then says that although the Carter & Edward's could not be faulted mechanically, that the presiding comittee felt that bolt actions were too dangerous, and restricted their selection to falling block actions only.

This is the only reference I have to this firearm, and I'm curious about it, as it seems to have been one of the very first true bolt actions, not only in Britain but anywhere. Does anyone know anything of the weapons appearance, history, inventors, calibre, type of ammunition or anything.

Thanks in advance

Dave

Title: Re: Carter & Edward's Bolt Action
Post by Bill_Curtis on 11/17/05 at 4:20pm

Yes we have a carbine version of one in our Museum at Bisley and they do turn up very occasionally. A very basic form of simple turn bolt. As I recollect the bolt handle takes most of the shearing stress in common with most of the actions of the time (Chassepot, Dreyse, etc.). Sir Henry lost a chunk of his thumb and I think that given his important position and natural disinclination towards something that had caused him this distress, it is not surprising that the horrible Martini-Henry was adopted and put British Service Rifle progress back 20 years. Whether it was striker protrusion or an oversensitive or protruding primer that was the cause I do not know.

Title: Re: Carter & Edward's Bolt Action
Post by dbm on 11/17/05 at 7:44pm

Have a look at the following on the HBSA web site for some patent information on Carter & Edwards:
www.hbsa.fsnet.co.uk/carter_&_edwards.htm (http://www.hbsa.fsnet.co.uk/carter_&_edwards.htm)

David

Title: Re: Carter & Edward's Bolt Action
Post by Dave on 12/05/05 at 2:50pm

Thanks for the replies.

Bill, out of curiousity why do you rate the Martini Henry so poorly? I've read the usual criticisms - ranging from the wildly hysterical to the reasoned - on the Martini's extraction problems, inability to be converted to a repeater and the problem with the early Martini's safeties. But even given all that, was it such a bad choice for 1869? Was there really as an effective an alternative around at that time?

Title: Re: Carter & Edward's Bolt Action
Post by Bill_Curtis on 12/05/05 at 7:24pm

We were only 2 years behind the introduction of the Mauser /71 and the Chassepot was converted to Gras in 1874. There were a variety of other systems but the bolt concept was already shining through.
I feel certain that but for the Carter Edwards accident a variety of the turn-bolt principle may well have succeeded.
It was not long before various efforts were being made to to try and find some sort of magazine or multiple shot to improve the M-H.

Title: Re: Carter & Edward's Bolt Action
Post by Dave on 12/06/05 at 9:25am

Was there ever a British magazine version of the Martini produced? I know that the Norwegian Krag-Peterssen was basically similar to the Martini action except that it had an external hammer like the original Peabody and I know of the quick loader attachments, but were there any proper repeating Martini prototypes ever made?

Title: Re: Carter & Edward's Bolt Action
Post by Bill_Curtis on 12/06/05 at 5:44pm

Only a sort of cartridge container or loading block attached to the side of the action which was never adopted so far as I know.