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British Firearms (Pre. 1914) >> Breech Loading - Military Rifles >> Cartridge ID help requested
http://www.lrml.org/cgi-bin/researchpress/YaBB.pl?num=1145741873

Message started by DoubleD on 04/22/06 at 10:37pm

Title: Cartridge ID help requested
Post by DoubleD on 04/22/06 at 10:37pm

This cartridge is a Battlefield pick up from Isandlwana. It appears to be a linen or paper covered 577/450.

http://www.fototime.com/C715CE82EB9FCEC/standard.jpg

Here is a second one compared with a 577/45o and paper 577 Snider
http://www.fototime.com/F6849195723CC05/standard.jpg

Does anyone have any information on these cartridges. It seems there were a good number of them found at Isandlwana

Title: Re: Cartridge ID help requested
Post by Bill_Curtis on 04/22/06 at 10:46pm

See my comment on the MLAGB site.

Sniders in the hands of Zulus ?

Title: Re: Cartridge ID help requested
Post by DoubleD on 04/23/06 at 8:09am

Here is another picture with two cartridges.

As you can see the cartridge is a coil cartridge covered with linen or paper.

The paper portion is considerably shorter than a Snider paper cartridge. This does not appear to be a Snide at all.

http://www.fototime.com/5B939E35B922D9A/standard.jpg

Title: Re: Cartridge ID help requested
Post by DoubleD on 05/03/06 at 7:54pm

I contacted Peter Smithurst at the Royal Armouries museum to see if he had any Ideas about these cartridges. It�s posted here with his permission

Peter,

I visited a small museum near Isandlwana this week end. They have four
battlefield pick up cartridges found there some years ago. The cartridges
are foil 577/450 Martini length covered with a shorter length of linen or
paper. The paper cover is shorter than a snider. Two of the cartridges are
shown in this picture along with a foil 577/450 and a paper 577 Snider
round.

The museum is going to send me the catalog information on where on the
battlefield these cartridges were found to relate to what unit they may have
come from.

Do you have any information on paper covered foil cartridges that these
might be?
I am resending this message as I forgot to give it a subject title. Some virus protection program strip out such messages a spam.
Douglas B Dickens

Douglas,

it is difficult to know but I wonder if it is simply that the coil cases have lost their outer skin to reveal the paper between the two layers of foil?

Peter

Peter,

I don't know, never considered that.

From examining the cases it didn't appear to be so. No remnants of foil were found over the paper. There about 40 of these cases and were picked up years ago at Isandlwana and Rorkes Drift.

Douglas

Douglas,

difficult to see any detail from the photo - one might expect some ragged ends of foil where the outer foil wrapping disappears into the base cup if the outer foil had been torn away. The only other alternative that occurs to me is that some of the volunteers (eg Durnford's ) may have used other firearms - perhaps game or sporting rifles which would almost certainly use cartridges with an outer paper wrapping. Something like .577 express, or even long chambered Martinis?
Peter

Peter,

Thanks so much, that is what I have been thinking also. Can I post this thought on the internet in hope it may make others think of something? I will post with credit to you?

Douglas

by all means - the responses might be interesting! The other gun used (possibly by officers) I think was the Westley Richards Martini?

Peter

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