I am new to this site - have shot some long range target with a bolt rifle and a good bit of High Power (200-600 yds) with service rifle.  I'd say I'm an average shooter in those disciplines.
 
Because of changing conditions - and eyesight, I've decided I want to acquire a muzzle loader, primarily for hunting deer size game, that will allow me to shoot to ranges of 400-600 yards.  I would, of course pick my shots and yield to poor conditions.  My goal is to reliably place the first shot inside a 9" circle.  The rifle needs to be of the more "traditional" bent and not one of the modern inline types.  I have seen a few "period" telescopic sights that I'd probably mount in preference to aperture sights - just to assure better bullet placement.  The rifle will see a good bit of work at the range before it sees the woods.
 
My first thought was to acquire another barrel for my Thompson Center Renegade.  This rifle has a hooked breech, barrel is hex 1" across flats and has set triggers.  To accommodate most regulations, I'd want a .45 cal barrel.  
 
The second option is to purchase a ready made rifle of good quality.  If it comes with sights, I would keep the apertures in event I decided to try my hand at target work on a more serious level.  
 
Any suggestions on the viability of either option?

Jes,
To do what you are discussing is really borderline - no, I should say, it is really well over the line.  
 
Let me explain just a bit more - because I have thought about this a bunch, and I have been down this road as far as she goes.. �
 
First, I don't believe there is anyone out here who can shoot less than 1,5 MOA day in - day out. At 600 yds, that's 9" right there - basically, your entire kill zone. �And competitors get the pleasure of perfect position on top of sighter shots, plus spotters, etc.  You don't get any of that hunting.  
 
Second, if your estimate for range is only 10 yds off, you can have more than a 5" error at 400 yds, just do to range issues along (never mind atmospheric variation etc that you cannot know) - at 600 yds, you are will have 12" of error so add that to your 9" baseline accuracy. �Now you are completely off the animal.
 
Third. �Time of flight, something you can do nothing about. �At 600 yds your flight time is 1.6 seconds. �At 400 it is still a full second. �That may not seem like much, but in that amount of time, that animal can move - a whole lot. �You should also add all the other things that need to happen between when your brain says "go" and the bullet first begins to move.  Lots of time for a stock-still animal to get agoin'.  And know way that you can predict if, much less when, that will happen.  
 
Fourth, wind. �You just ain't gonna make it. �There is no long range muzzleloader shooter than can hold the 10" xring at 600 yds every day. �In fact, the number of perfect scores shot at 600 yds - in competition with the best of conditions, time and a dead stationary target - is vanishingly small. �
 
I used very very optimistic numbers in calculating trajectories for this - basically from very aerdynamic and fast long-range TARGET bullets.  Hunting bullets would be considerably worse. �You can explore this on your own at http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj/traj.html
 
For hunting, I use an underhammer .45 fast twist rifle with 475-550 gr bullets. �It is - at its (and my) very very ultimate best - a 300 yds hunting rifle. �I have four sets of sights for it and none of them make it a 400 yd hunting rifle, including the 25x Lyman STS.
 
If you want something comparable, look at the Pedersoli Gibbs .45. �It's your only off the shelf choice and considerably better than rebarreling a TC Rengade or similar.
 
Sorry to rain on your parade, but you really cannot get there from here. �
 
Brent
 
 
 �

Quote from jes10x1 on Nov 27^th, 2007, 2:24pm:

 
Okay, now you are talking. �The Gibbs is your baby. It comes in .40 and .45. �Get the latter. �I have one in .45 myself though I have shot it very little and only at targets. �It is quite heavy however. �Probably 13# or so and with a 34" barrel. �This is not a handy field rifle so prepare yourself for that.  
 
The other route is to build one. �I think there are quite a few options here, and it sort of depends on what you want to do. �I built the world's ugliest rifle on an underhammer action. �It uses a .45x18" twist Badger barrel (identical to my Sharps .45-100) and it is about 10#s, and quite a lot handier than the Gibbs. �It is just as accurate, but being lighter, it does recoil more intensely. �This is compounded by the oddly shaped stock. �
 
You could build one in many other configurations but there are some special considerations, to be considered. �Most involve the quality of the breechplug, the seating of the nipple, and the lining of the nipple (universally agreed that Platinum lined nipples are required here). �
 
You will also need to consider bullets. �Any ideas? �
 
Brent

Brent,
Haven't gotten far enough to worry about bullets.  Would probably look initially for commercial sources & then get a custom mould if I sorted out what I really wanted.  I've just learned about "Platinum nipples" and have no idea where to look, although I'd probably start with Dixie - or a local BP shop, if I can find one.  I won't actually start on this until, probably spring, so have a bit of research time yet.  I'll also collect a bit of information at the Shot Show this Feb.
 
David,
Thank you for your information.  I copied the following from the Dixie Gun Works ad on the Pedersoli Gibbs:
"PR3195 Dixie/ Pedersoli Gibbs Rifle - .451 Caliber
A reproduction of one of the most famous rifles in the field of precision target shooting. Made in 1865 by English gunsmith George Gibbs it was a rifle born to satisfy both the aesthetical purists and the 100+ meter shooters. Halfstock w/checkered wrist & forearm. European walnut. Satin finish � 28� length. Barrel is blued � 35 �� � tapered octagon at breech 1.240 to round .915 at muzzle � front sight 3/8� dovetail, blued steel w/micrometer adjustment scale for windage & spirit level (includes 15 inserts) � rear sight is tang sight, blued steel w/polished scales and is adjustable for windage & elevation. 3 �� stem. Has a 1 in 18� twist. #11 percussion cap. Features blued steel buttcap � ebony nosecap & grip cap � color casehardened lock, breechplug, tang, triggerguard and wedgeplates � hook style breech � drilled and tapped for tang sight (only the sight included � holes 1.660� center to center) � tang sight will accept Hadley Eye Cup (EB0102 � sold separately). Sling swivel on triggerplate. Overall length is 52 ��. Weighs 11 1/2 pounds. Recommend load is 60 grains of FFFg powder with a .451 conical bullet. Manufactured by Pedersoli/Italy.
THIS PRODUCT CANNOT BE SHIPPED TO CANADA."
 
Based on your knowledge of the available rifles, would you think this is the one with which to start?  I might actually get to see one of these at the Pedersoli booth during the Shot Show.  What do you think?
John

The Pedersoli Gibbs is a fine target rifle and others will be better able than I to advise as to its suitability as a hunting rifle. Its weight, sights and lack of ram rod are factors that might govern your choice. One more matter is how the rifle is carried when on a hunt - would it be carried with charge and bullet loaded (but not capped)? I mention this because the bullet for such rifles is normally just under bore size and loads with little pressure from the ram rod. You will need to ensure that the rifle is carried in such a way that the bullet does not slide forward of the powder column while in transit.  
 
The Gibbs has a pistol grip stock - if you are happy with the straight stocked military rifle then you might want to consider a Parker-Hale Volunteer or equivalent. The Volunteer has Henry rifling and a good reputation for accuracy. It is fitted with open sights rather than the Gibbs aperture sights, but is fitted with a ram rod. The rifle also uses the larger musket caps rather than the small no. 11 caps - perhaps a factor in ease of capping in the field?.
 
David

Quote from Brent on Nov 28^th, 2007, 1:01pm:

 
Thanks for confirming that Brent. I am happy with bullet sizes for target shooting, but not being a hunter I wasn't sure if there was an issue there.
 
David

Jes-
 
I don't post much because i'm knew to this game myself, mostly i just read and learn from others.  but here i do have some encouragement, i'm a hunter myself and i use my PH whitworth exclusivly for whittails in illinois.  as far as bullets go, for hunting and targets i shoot a postell bullet 30-1 sized .454, it shoots fine accuracy 1.75" @ 100 yrds (not match winning i know, but i'm still experimenting and i'm a tinkerer by nature so that's fine with me).  i've taken my last 2 deer with it and the rounds have excellent penetration with bone crushing power if you hit a bone, otherwise mine have both been heart and lung shots.  personally on deer i am very confident @ 250 beyond that i have a hard time judging range.  right now i have the standard battlefield sights but plan upgrading them at some point, i am also planning on trying PP bullets.(which I have read Brents's website many times and it's excellent).  if you're into history the whitworth i a fun gun to shoot, finding the right bullet is finicky, and the barrel really needs to be bedded.  otherwise it handles great in the woods and fun at the range.  i should think that the volunteer would be excellent as well.  
hope this helps
Jason

It does not happen in my rifle.  But it is simple enough to try your's.  Put a bullet in there and bang your gun around and see what happens.  I don't think you get movement whatsoever.  You have to try it to be sure.
 
Brent