A colleague collector sends me an image of an old document "for rifle cops about to be armed with the Whitworth rifle.". The report was written in a manuscript record book entitled 'Report & Experiment Book of Arms, Ammunition &c.' WO 140/2 Jan 1862 to Oct. 1887. (School of Musketry Hythe) still kept at the School of Infantry, Warminster. I have published two pages on this forum. See:  
 ï¿½
http://home.kpnplanet.nl/[email protected]/page1_Whitworth.jpg
 
http://home.kpnplanet.nl/[email protected]/page2_Whitworth.jpg  
 
This document mentions on page 2 the "pandran pipe pouch" without any further description. �??? �
 
We assume that the "pandran pipe pouch" was intended for paper cartridges. I gues that Pandran is the name of the inventor, but actually we know nothing about it. (A name in India/Pakistan ?)  
 
Who can tell us more about the "pandran pipe pouch" for the Whitworth rifle ? We are really eager to know. �
 
Please contact us. �
 
Jan van Gelderen �
http://OldMilitaryRifles.EU

Dear Mr. Curtis,
 
Thank you for your reply,
 
I am sorry but the photographs were possibly not available for certain time. My web hosting provider took his time for fixing the problem.  
 
I didn�t notice the margin correction, but you are right. And further, indeed on the place of the word Pandran, someone has written another word with a pencil. This is a strong indication that it should be Pandean Pipe Pouch. In that case it sounds very logical to me that Pandean is an adjective.
 
How do you know that the document is a copy form General Hay�s notes, made by a clerk ? Although I find it difficult to read the old handwriting I can see it is signed �Hay�. Is the symbol besides the margin correction the letter �H� from �Hay� ?
 
OK, the Pandean Pipe Pouch, intended for the Whitworth rifle paper cartridges, looks like a Pan Pipe Pouch. However, a Pan Pipe consists of several tubes with a different length. Do you have an explanation for this? Possibly this is why the clerk was so dense and headstrong. Yes, I know I am jumping to conclusions. It is just a thought.
 
You gave me some interesting and very nice to know details. This is on its own, enough to write a short article about it in our Magazine of the Dutch Gun Collectors �Wapenfeiten�. Thank you for your valuable input.
 
Do you know about the existence of the Pandean Pipe Pouch (for the Whitworth rifle paper cartridges) and do you know if pictures of this accoutrement are available somewhere? If not, I am afraid that further details about the pouch will stay a secret for the future.
 
With regards
 
Jan van Gelderen

Mr. Curtis,
 
I (Jan van Gelderen) asked the question about the pipe pouch as a result of a contact with the Dutch collector Bart Temmink. Bart and I are both are interested in English firearms made between 1845 and 1945. The source of the document and discovery of the pipe pouch came from Rog Dennis, Guest author of the "The Armourer Magazine" and Graham Priest, author of "Soldiers' Accoutrements of the British Army 1750-1900".
 
Rog asked me to place his following reply on this forum:
 
Firstly, Graham Priest (who discovered the report) and I did dissect the graphology of Pandran, allowing for its cursive style - "copper-plate" as we term it in the U.K.. The "r" is exactly as my mother taught me - half a century ago! It very definitely is not an "e". I would accept that there could be some argument about the end letter, an "n", or a "u". Thus convinced, I ceased think any further laterally, instead trying to establish if it was a person's name, place name, etc and in what country, indeed what language. I drew a blank on all these.
 
Notwithstanding, I absolutely accept Pandean!! I am pleased to have the information of a marginal correction and you can also see pencil underneath the inked word. Undaunted, the clerk has rendered what he thought the word was, where it has lain un-noticed, waiting to trip up Posterity!! I have to say I baulked at "Pandean" too, never, ever having heard the adjectival form, though Pan's Pipes I have long known of. I therefore consulted my O.E.D. and, sure enough, there it is.
 
Having discovered the peculiarity of Whitworth ammunition, having a loading guide integrated with the cartridge, I can quite accept that someone might have thought linked tubes, of a Pan's Pipes layout, might be the ideal method of carriage. The resemblance is further reinforced by the curved vertical view of such instruments. I also think the report is of a dismissive tone, so would agree that the idea was never translated into reality. It is self evident that such long cartridge / tube combinations, mounted on a belt, would be bent if the upper body was inclined forward. To prevent that, such Pandean Pipes would need to be inside a more substantial pouch, to protect them from bending. The ideal would be a drilled, wooden block - and we are back with the form of cartridge pouches already in existence!!!
 
That was what fired me up in the first place. Being something of an accoutrementalist, for over 50 years, I was completely taken aback to see mention of a pouch, that I had never heard of. I racked my brains, but could think of no pouch on issue to British troops that could possibly be peculiar only to the Whitworth Rifle. Other sources indicated that the Army did not bother to design a special pouch. Thus I was left wondering...
 
What really irritates me is something connected to Pan's Pipes themselves. Many years ago I discovered an Andean group, using various sizes of Pan's Pipes, whose record Cacharpaya (B side Flight of the Condor) was in the hit parade for some time. I was sufficiently taken with the musical style to buy the record. Why, oh why didn't I make the connection!!!  
 
Yours sincerely,
 
Rog Dennis  

I found that ammunition pouch picture. The note with it claims it to be for a Baker Rifle, made for the Percy Tenantry. �Though I have been told that their rifles were not Bakers. It is certainly an interesting item, has anyone seen any other pouches like this? If it is for a flintlock rifle it obviously well & truly predates the Whitworth era. Adrian.
 

I wanted to make a point about Mr Van Gelderen's reference to Whitworth Cartridges being inside cardboard tubes.  These are the rather specialised and expensive forms of the ammunition.  The vast majority of the small-bore .451 ammunition was in the form of paper cartridges made exactly like the standard Enfield cartridges except for the addition of the wad under the base of the bullet.  Also, they were cylindrical rather than hexagonal and were loaded in the same way as for the Enfield.   This form of small-bore cartridge was produced by all the main ammunition makers but, as far as I know, Whitworth�s tube designs came only from him.
 
The very best that were used by top target shots were hexagonal cardboard tubes designed to fit into the counter-sink in the muzzles of the rifles which were closed at the powder end by a small flap or gate which was pulled out of the side of the tube when in position allowing the powder to fall straight down the barrel.  The patched bullet and wad were then rammed down through the tube and down the bore without the need to remover the tube until it was empty and could be discarded. There was a similar arrangement for cylindrical bullets.  In addition to this there were very short cardboard tubes just containing the bullet and wads for use in conjunction with the powder flask.  One of the complaints of the military was that the paper cartridges for the Whitworths were too fragile because of their narrower diameter and greater length.  Hence these investigations into pouch design.  

Mr. Roads, Mr. Curtis, David,
 
Thank you all for your information.
 
Mr. Roads, I would like to publish your photos of the ammo pouch in our Club Magazine "Wapenfeiten". Can you give me your permission? Can I possibly get digital photo's with a higher resolution?
 
Wtih regards,
 
Jan van Gelderen
E-mail: [email protected]
 

Jan I'll email you directly with a higher res scan of those images. Unfortunately the prints I have are not great quality to start with though.
 
Bill that is a very neat display of cartridges/caps. I've seen the odd P'53 cartrdige around in OZ but not the WR or Whitworth, how rare are these in the UK?
 
Adrian.