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05/28/08 at 11:31am


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14 gauge brass for Greener police shotgun (Read 496 times)
Dennis
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14 gauge brass for Greener police shotgun
03/29/08 at 5:34pm
 
Don't know if this is the right forum or era but I've recently acquired a WW Greener 14 gauge police shotgun with a Martini Henry action.  Apparently it takes a special bottle necked brass cartridge with a unique firing pin system.  Does anyone know of a source for this brass or the specs so that I can have some made??  Thanks
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Bill Curtis
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Re: 14 gauge brass for Greener police shotgun
Reply #1 - 03/29/08 at 10:09pm
 
I used one of these Greener Special Police guns in the Hong Kong Police over forty years ago. �I still have the cartridge case for one. �The secret was a triple pin arrangement so that the firing �pin emerged in between two others which themselves engaged in a circular groove cut in the base of the cartridge. �This prevented the gun being fired with anything other than its own special cartridge. �The chamber also reduced in diameter about 1.125 inches from the face of the breech from about 0.790 to about 0.755 so that commercial cartridges could not chamber. �My specimen has a circular groove on the rear face 0.100 deep and 0.070 wide located with its outer edge 0.185 from the outer edge of the rim and its inner edge which incorporates the primer pocket forming a circle of 0.365 diameter. �Of course, many of these guns have had the two extra pins cut off when they left service. �The brass cartridge is normal 12 bore base size and 2.5 inch length with a coned star crimp. � You could say it was 12 bore necked down to 14 bore. �I seem to remember that the load was 13 or 15 buckshot about .30 calibre. �Discharged straight at a person at 30 yards or so it was fatal as most of the buckshot would hit the body. � 100 yards was a better range but we were told it was better to ricochet them off the road surface to get them to spread and if anyone turned up in hospital with a bit of lead in them they were nicked. �There was an elaborate drill for them which involved displaying a banner warning the rioters to go home. �The next thing was tear gas, then baton rounds from the 1.5 inch Federal Gas Gun. These were 18 inches of hardwood with brass end caps (none of your patsy rubber bullets) which were sent bouncing and skipping down the road at knee height causing a certain amount of desire to bugger off quick, failing which the Greeners were deployed �with an elaborate drill involving a ceremony in which the rioters were shown the big brass cartridges which were held up in full view and then loaded, finally, with a flourish, the safeties were disengaged. �If they had not started packing up by then a storm of lead shot would come next. �Absolute last resort was a Sterling SMG and for specially picking off ringleaders an American M1 Carbine. �This last an ideal Police rifle as it has limited power and range and the .303 was far too powerful for urban control work.
 
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Bill Curtis
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Dennis
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Re: 14 gauge brass for Greener police shotgun
Reply #2 - 03/30/08 at 3:04am
 
wow!   That's a lot of good info.  I haven't broken the gun down to see if the pins are still in place so that sounds like the first order of business.  I've seen pictures of the brass cartridge - looks pretty impressive.  There are a couple of outfits that claim they will custom make any kind of brass  so I may try to have a few made, probably with a shot card in the end instead of that strange crimp.  Possibly they've had some experience with this brass and may have specs.  I'll let you know if you're interested.  The shotgun certainly is unique and interesting.  Do you have any idea when they stopped manufacturing ammo for it - or who supplied the shells?
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Bill Curtis
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Re: 14 gauge brass for Greener police shotgun
Reply #3 - 03/30/08 at 12:49pm
 
The headstamp reads as follows :-
top - �GREENER
bottom - POLICE GUN
left - E
right - K
 
from which one presumes the manufacturer to be Eley Kynoch, a subsidiary of Imperial Chemical Industries. �In 1977 they became independent as I.M.I. and still make some ammunition. �Whether this special cartridge is made or not I do not know but I am sure that supply would be strictly curtailed to Police Departments if they do still make it.
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Bill Curtis
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Bill Curtis
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Re: 14 gauge brass for Greener police shotgun
Reply #4 - 03/30/08 at 1:20pm
 
This from David Cushman http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/greenerpolice.html
 
]
 

 
Greener Police Shotgun Cartridge and Weapon  
 
The Greener police shotgun was always a bit of an oddity... Back in the 1960s & 70s I had some ideas about introducing it into service with the UK police, with several unusual purposes, including car stopping, wire cutting and an anti-airship capability. The non interchangeability feature of the ammunition and the high service pressure made this weapon ideal for the purposes envisaged.  
 
I was not successful in creating any interest in the Home Office and so, like so many other worthwhile objectives, the project was shelved.  
 
I had some information... many years ago, from a Mr. Onions (then working at Elderkin's, but previously at Greener). However the notes that I took at that time were in the filing system at my office when my company 'Apex Enterprises' went bankrupt and so they have been lost, along with thousands of other documents and drawings that would have made good reading on a website of this nature.  
 
Since I started compiling this website I have sought to regain my lost information about the Greener 14 bore, but have been unable to obtain any drawings or details. However while researching something else, I stumbled upon several websites that deal with Martini actioned weapons and there are several mentions of the Greener police shotgun, simply because it has a Martini action. I acknowledge that much of the following detail has either come from those sources or has been re-triggered in my mind because of them.  
 
The Martini action is a strong box-like action, designed by Friederich von Martini of Switzerland, that lends itself to the manufacture of robust single shot weapons. It has a falling block that is lowered for loading by a lever that also cocks the striker ready to fire. The last portion of downward movement of the breech block causes the ejector to rotate on it's axis pin and thus move the spent cartridge case from the chamber (far enough to be removed by the fingers).  
 
There have been three versions of this weapon/cartridge combination, with different chambering and borings to suit different uses within a mark no.  
 
The Greener Mark I/14
The "14" in the designation referred to the bore size, although the cartridge was not a standard one for this gauge, but was a special 14 1/2 gauge parallel sided one. The Greener reference being '14 bore for use in Mark I guns'
Greener Police Gun Mark III
The Mark III was chambered for three different types of cartridge...  
 
The original 14 1/2 gauge Mark I shells
 
Standard 12 gauge 2 3/4" shells
 
Special bottle necked shells for the Egyptian police
 
The objective of the unusual calibres was to limit the use of stolen weapons, but the MK I/14 was easily circumvented by wrapping a paper sleeve around a conventional 16 bore cartridge.  
 
This led to the development of the Mk III bottle necked shell illustrated at right, it was 0.782" diameter at the base, and was necked down to 0.740" for the remainder of it's length. The overall length of the double diameter shell was 2.875".  
     
The bottle necked Mark III Special Greener Police Gun Shotshell. Case of drawn brass, crimped closure (10 point folded or roll crimp). The cartridge was specially designed for use with Greener's Police Gun Mark III and deliberately intended to be used with nothing else. The Police Gun was a Martini-Action shotgun used by British Colonial Police forces (particularly in Egypt) during the early 1900's. It was adapted so that it would only allow cartridges, made specifically for the weapon, to be fired.  
 
This bottle necked form of the cartridge was enough to prevent the weapon's unauthorized use on it's own, but a second feature was included by Greener... By adding a large annular groove in the base of the cartridge head and two lugs that protrude from the front face of the breech block. When a cartridge is loaded into the chamber, the lugs registered in the annular groove in the base of the case. This meant that the weapon could only be closed and fired if the special grooved cartridges were used.  
 
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Bill Curtis
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Dennis
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Re: 14 gauge brass for Greener police shotgun
Reply #5 - 04/08/08 at 7:34am
 
I managed to find a maker of this ammunition.  Rocky Mt Cartridge makes virtually any brass cartridges on a lathe and had a box of Greener Police cartridges that are in the mail as we chat.  I also sent back to the estate sale where I found the shotgun and they produce 16 original, loaded brass shotgun shells.  What a good score!!!  I intend to work up some really light loads with the modern shells and then possibly shoot at least one of the originals - just because I can!!  Mr Curtis - I've shared your stories and everyone is intrigued!
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Bill Curtis
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Re: 14 gauge brass for Greener police shotgun
Reply #6 - 04/08/08 at 11:07am
 
Have you found out yet if yours has the triple pin arrangement as it is only the last model that has ?
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Bill Curtis
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Dennis
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Re: 14 gauge brass for Greener police shotgun
Reply #7 - 04/10/08 at 2:39am
 
I haven't taken the gun apart yet (fear factor) but the original ammo from the estate sale had the recessed groove in the base.  I have a martini-henry 450/577 and almost had an anxiety attach when I tried to put it back together.  Do you know if the firing pin assembly comes out by just removing the pivot pin from the loading ramp??
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Bill Curtis
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Re: 14 gauge brass for Greener police shotgun
Reply #8 - 04/10/08 at 11:12am
 
I never disassembled the Police Greener and it a long time since I took down a Service Martini but I seem to remember that the firing pin and its spring are located within the breech block and are removed by unscrewing a hollow sleeve. �Don't take my word for it though � It is probably selective amnesia as I always detested the Martini-Henry in any case !
 
Bill
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Bill Curtis
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Dennis
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Re: 14 gauge brass for Greener police shotgun
Reply #9 - 04/10/08 at 8:30pm
 
Thanks Bill!  I'll play it by ear and let you know how it comes out.
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