Long Range Muzzle Loader - Rigby and Withworth

LRML Newbies

Posts: 35

Rigby and Withworth
Nov 1^st, 2007, 3:03pm

I�ve seen in the last month Events that you separate Withworth Rifles as a discipline and ALL OTHERS into other ( Rigby ) . Why ? Some old experimented spanish shooters tell me that the With it�s not a good choice to shot 100 mts because cleaning between shots it�s essential ( always their opinion ) , and that�s a thorny issue when you got only 30 minutes for 13 shots , and I�m looking for reasons to refuse... or confirm !!
Thanks in advance

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David

Junior Member

Posts: 65

Re: Rigby and Withworth
Reply #1 - Nov 1^st, 2007, 6:16pm

Are you getting confused with MLAIC international competition names? All MLAIC events are named:

Whitworth is the 100m individual competition for free rifle.
Rigby is the Team of 3 competition for free rifle.

Whitworth rifles do not have their own event but are fired in free rifle competitions along with all other eligible rifles.

I don't have a lot of experince with Whitworth rifles, but confirm that they do require careful management to get the best from them.

Here in the UK the Long Range Rifles Branch of the MLAGB does hold a competition for Whitworth rifles. It was fired last Sunday at 600 yards and there were 17 entrants. In the free rifle competition fired the same day there were about 40 shooters.

David

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David Minshall - www.researchpress.co.uk
Firearms History, Target Shooting & Volunteer Infantry

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hashett_jack

LRML Newbies

Posts: 35

Re: Rigby and Withworth
Reply #2 - Nov 1^st, 2007, 9:17pm

Thank you David : As always , your affirmattions are very enlightening

Well , when I must clean between shots , I usually do that : first I ram a couple of times with a cleaning patch impregnated with diluted ammonia . One more time with a dry patch . After that I proceed to load . Some expert With shooter can tell me if that system may be enought in order to get the best from the rifle ?

Thanks

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belgmart LRML Newbies Posts: 33	Re: Rigby and Withworth Reply #3 - Nov 1^st, 2007, 9:47pm Why the diluted ammonia? Ammonia normal is a components used to dissolve jacket fouling, no jacketed bullets here... Being an alkaline, it can promote rust, so I only see disadvantages in using th stuff, and no advantages. If the idea is to clean up the fouling from the previous shot, plain water will do that as well or better.
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justmike LRML Newbies Posts: 6	Re: Rigby and Withworth Reply #4 - Nov 1^st, 2007, 10:40pm Have you tried Ballistol for cleaning.
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hashett_jack

LRML Newbies

Posts: 35

Re: Rigby and Withworth
Reply #5 - Nov 1^st, 2007, 11:40pm

Diluted ammonia �cause it clean up the black powder fouling very good and fast. I never hear nothing about it can promote rust... but really can�t assure the opposite.
I usually use water mixed with a bit of washing up liquid , and diluted ammonia only when I need remove the fouling very well , as is the case.
What is the way you do between shots with your Withs ??

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hashett_jack LRML Newbies Posts: 35	Re: Rigby and Withworth Reply #6 - Nov 1^st, 2007, 11:43pm Sorry justmike : I have never used Ballistrol , it�s not a easy to find item here in Spain , but I will try .
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belgmart

LRML Newbies

Posts: 33

Re: Rigby and Withworth
Reply #7 - Nov 2^nd, 2007, 3:50pm

The water is what cleans up the fouling very well - the ammonia doesn't do anything, actually. Plain tap water will work as well as most BP solvents, some add a little water-soluble oil (like ballistol) for some added rust-protection. And if you want to know what ammonia can do to steel just wrap some carbon steel in an ammonia-soaked rag for some time...
BP fouling is actually alkaline, and you are adding more of it.... Not good.

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hashett_jack LRML Newbies Posts: 35	Re: Rigby and Withworth Reply #8 - Nov 2^nd, 2007, 6:16pm Do you add Ballistol to the water or use it pure ? In the first case , which proportion ? I�m looking for Ballistol dealers in Spain , and I think I will buy by the Net...
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belgmart LRML Newbies Posts: 33	Re: Rigby and Withworth Reply #9 - Nov 2^nd, 2007, 6:20pm For cleaning out the fouling, I Use about 10/1 water/Ballistol, you will get a white, 'milkish' substance. For protection after cleaning and drying, use it pure. Hint: do it somewhere out of 'smell' from you better half, it does have a rather pungent aroma when used pure, to be compared with sweaty socks...
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hashett_jack

LRML Newbies

Posts: 35

Re: Rigby and Withworth
Reply #10 - Nov 2^nd, 2007, 6:32pm

Corrosion Inhibition

There is more than one type of corrosion. Common corrosion is oxidation, a chemical reaction between ferrous metals and the oxygen contained in air and water. Rust is the best example for this type of corrosion. But there are also other types of corrosion, such as acidic corrosion, galvanic corrosion and stress corrosion. Salt water corrosion is a combination of oxidation and acidic and galvanic corrosion. It is virtually impossible to stop corrosion completely. Corrosion happens, albeit very slowly. It is, therefore, more honest to speak about inhibiting corrosion rather than stopping or preventing it. Ballistol is mildly alkaline (pH between 8.5 and 9.5). Therefore, it is capable of neutralizing mild acids and acidic residues such as hand sweat (no fingerprints etched into the soft damascus steel of the old collector gun) or residues from black powder (which are acidic). Ballistol not only protects against normal corrosion (i.e. oxidation) but also against acidic and galvanic corrosion, against which non-alkaline corrosion inhibitors are completely useless. Due to its low surface tension Ballistol creeps and penetrates. It will actively propel itself and reach areas inaccessible for the applicator. It will even creep upwards against gravity.

the link for that is : http://www.firehawktech.com/v/vspfiles/V4_Backup/b%5Efirearms.asp

Looking for spanish dealers I�ve just found that : in according to it , the ballistol its a very good balck powder cleaner exactly for the same ammonia condition : mildy alkaline , againts the black powder acidic condition !! we must to take it into account , may be cheaper to use it !!
Regards

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belgmart

LRML Newbies

Posts: 33

Re: Rigby and Withworth
Reply #11 - Nov 3^rd, 2007, 8:33am

There's lots of stories of BP residue being acidic, therefore I suggest you try it yourself with some testing strips - some people even claim that BP combustion forms sulphuric acid.... Huh

from another site, I Quote: "six grains of black powder were burned in a loosely covered stainless steel pan, and the residue was dissolved in 5 ml of water......It seems like the alkaline powder residue is reacting....First, it should be understood this is a very severe test. Black powder residue contains a number of potassium salts which, when combined with water, form an extremely alkaline and corrosive mixture."
Forget about the corrosive - not true - it is hygroscopic, attacts water, which causes the corrosion.
Don't believe every internet claim at face value! And drop the ammonia.... Ammonia is higly alkaline, Ballistol is very mildly alkaline. Ballistol in itself doesn't do anything to clean the rifle, the water works - the ballistol residue left behind will to a certain degree inhibit corrosion.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/corrosion/corrosion2.html

And I presume you will now have a headache from all that contradictory information!

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hashett_jack LRML Newbies Posts: 35	Re: Rigby and Withworth Reply #12 - Nov 3^rd, 2007, 9:35pm You absolutely right Belgmart , I�m becaming crazy , ha ha !! I think I will use plain tap water !! Well , Ballistol seems a good choice ,I go on looking for it... Thanks Belgmart
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justmike LRML Newbies Posts: 6	Re: Rigby and Withworth Reply #13 - Nov 3^rd, 2007, 9:57pm Belgmart. Beg to differ but Ballistol very definately cleans bp fouling.
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Digital_Dan

LRML Newbies

Posts: 12

Re: Rigby and Withworth
Reply #14 - Nov 4^th, 2007, 2:54am

Quote:

A simple, commonly cited, chemical equation for the combustion of black powder is:

2 KNO3 + S + 3 C → K2S + N2 + 3 CO2

A more accurate, but still simplified, equation is:[3]

10 KNO3 + 3 S + 8 C → 2 K2CO3 + 3 K2SO4 + 6 CO2 + 5 N2

The products of burning do not follow any simple equation. One study's results showed it produced (in order of descending quantities): 55.91% solid products: potassium carbonate, potassium sulfate, potassium sulfide, sulfur, potassium nitrate, potassium thiocyanate, carbon, ammonium carbonate. 42.98% gaseous products: carbon dioxide, nitrogen, carbon monoxide, hydrogen sulfide, hydrogen, methane, 1.11% water. However, those products that contain hydrogen are probably contamination, due to the fact that none of the reactants contain any hydrogen.

Black powder formulations where the nitrate used is sodium nitrate tend to be hygroscopic, unlike black powders where the nitrate used is saltpetre. Because of this, black powder which uses saltpetre can be stored unsealed and remain viable for centuries provided no liquid water is ever introduced; muzzleloaders have been known to fire after hanging on a wall for decades in a loaded state, provided they remained dry. By contrast, powder which uses sodium nitrate, which is typically intended for blasting, must be sealed from moisture in the air to remain stable for long periods of time.

No sulphuric acid there. Move along.......

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